Cataclysm Raid Changes

by on Apr.27, 2010, under General

I guess it’s glad I’ve stopped playing, because personally I do not like these changes to the 10man/25man lockouts.

Nelthera posts:

The first of the refinements being made is that we’re combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn’t apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We’re designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we’ll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They’ll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

  • 10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
  • 10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

So basically you cannot do 10man and 25man on the same toon per week.  They will share the same lockout, and they drop the same gear.  There’s no longer a point to have 25man raids at all.

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9 Comments for this entry

  • Roukie

    It just means theirs less strain on having a 25man guild as apposed to a 10man guild.

    It basically means that you dont need to be in a 25man guild to have competitive pve gear. If you were so inclined, and only had about 10 of your mates who you wanted to raid with, you could still face the same level (in terms of difficulty) and reap the same rewards.

    And if your in a larger 25man guild, 25’s are their.

    I mean TOTC was a nightmare, 4 different raid lockouts, of the same bloody circle room & bosses.

    and theirs like 7 Raids to do when you hit 85, so its not like your not gonna have enough to do.

    Blizzard gave us more content, but removed the need/ability to FARM THE FUCK outta it to get to the next bit. do you really want to have to farm 7 raids worth of content on 10, 10HC, 25, 25HC. Just to get the BiS stuff from each raid?

  • Sunfyre

    ICC solved that by having heroic and non-heroic sharing the same lockout.

    Why would anyone want to have to rely on 24 other people to log in, not fuck up, and play like a pro, when they can just rely on 9 others? What incentive is there to run 25man now?

  • Moonqlow

    i agree there Sun. Im currently in a 25man guild that struggles with having enough people online to keep the progress up (9/12 ICCHC.) If this change goes live in cata i doubt we see alot of 25man guilds unless the bonus is so massive u still want to. But it needs to be pretty big to keep people playing 25man.

  • Balourd

    They would have to exponentially increase the amount of gear dropped by each boss to get 25 man raids worthwhile. That and more badges. Because its exponentially harder to group up with 25 people and coordinate 25 players than 10 people.
    On a mathematical basis, 10m-raids drop 2 piece for 10 people, which means a ratio of 1 loot per 5 people.
    If that was to be proportional with 25m-raids, we would have to see 5 loots per boss (which is 2 more than what we currently see in ICC).
    Thats not considering the fact taht 25 people are harder to coordinate and to position vs 10m. If we factor that in, we should be rewarded over 5 piece of loot every boss. Can you imagine loot distribution taking 6 years?
    Would also be much easier to get geared. Or blizzard would have to come up with a solution like dropping 7 pieces of gear, 1 for caster cloth, 1 for healing cloth, 1 for leather melee, 1 for caster leather, etc.
    TL:DR. 25m-raids are probably dead. lol

  • Balourd

    Idea : Give the 25m loot extra sockets? Maybe this will push very elitist people to get the gear for the extra umph, but the mild-casual people would still not care about the 10m version without (or with less) sockets ?

  • Fearon

    I like this change because i dislike the amount of things you “have-to-do” to keep up.

  • Seca

    @Balourd – the extra socket would defeat a large part of the purpose here. 10 man raiders feel like second-class citizens b/c the gear they get is second rate. Putting an extra socket on 25 man gear would just perpetuate that.

    I was originally opposed to the idea for a couple of reasons. I do think it will be detrimental to 25 man raiding. Also, it seems in part to be caving to “strict 10 man raiders” some of whom I find overly sanctimonious.

    But I’ve changed my mind for a couple reasons. One is that 25 man raiding has become increasingly taxing on my hardware. I’m not prepared to buy a state of the art machine just to keep my frame rate up. If the trend continues, switching to 10 might be in my future.

    The other is that the badge grind is way out of hand imo, and this should help. As moonkin, my non-heroic BIS consists of 5-6 drops (neck, MH-OH, 1 ring, trinket, boots). Everything else is bought with badges or crafted (badges for saronite). It seems wrong to me that bootstomping Keristraza for the nth time does as much for my raiding gear as knocking out a progression boss.

  • Sunfyre

    Not to offend any of our 10man readers, but 10man raiding is second class. 10man raiding will alawys be easier for a few simple issues:

    You have more room for the encounter
    You can raidstack talent and classes
    You only have to rely on 9 other tards to move out of the fire, not 24.

    That’s the problem with this change to raids — since the gear will be identical, why go do 25man raiding?

  • Balourd

    @Seca: I understand what you mean by “Putting an extra socket on 25 man gear would just perpetuate that.” Although I agree, the difference between ilvl251 – ilvl264 (13 item levels) and 1 or 2 sockets is huge and it would definitely lower the gap between 10m and 25m gear.
    I fully agree with Sunfyre. Its easier to have 2 or 3 10man raids going on in parallel than a 25man. If the rewards end up being “10m and 25m will have the exact same loot”

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