Coffee Talk… Starfall and Crit/Haste Cap

by on Mar.12, 2010, under General

Talk amongst yourselves!  I’ll give you a topic:

What to stack past the crit / haste cap.

Right now most people agree that crit and haste have about the same value once you cap out on both of them.  However with the changes to Starfall, I’m thinking I may keep going with crit past the cap simply because it a) continues to help you proc Eclipse, and b) benefits Starfall, which is going to be a much larger DPS component now.


I’m so verklempt!

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27 Comments for this entry

  • Matriarch

    Depends on my future gear i guess.. But I think I’ll go for the crit also, could any of you please tell me crit cap? I have absolutely no idea of what it is. :-/

    But I also like to have loads of crits, as you mentioned it helps out on eclipse and also is great on starfall.. Plus I really like the big crits comming up on the screen when starfire really says BOOM! ;)

    Best regards


  • Orrak

    While i’ve been going with haste over crit, because i feel it really helps to get going after movement when you don’t have natures grace up, i agree with you that crit will likely be more valuable post 3.3.3 due to starfall damage

  • Orrak

    now maybe if they gave us hasted dots like everybody else then it would be a toss up… i understand why they didn’t add crit to moonfire innately cause of 4t9 but why not haste…

  • Roukie

    outta the choice i prefer crit, for the reasons sun stated, it just benefits more things out of eclipse than haste does.

  • Roukie

    Haste also screws you over more if u go over cap to far, with the clipping on a 0.9/0.8sec wrath. Crit wont do that, as u all know, during your lunar, having 104% crit or watever, wont mess with your spell casting.

  • Lereth

    Agreed. Will go with crit.

  • vromeov

    No point in getting too much haste where u r clipping your spells. As you said, at least Crit will help get faster eclipse rotations, IN THEORY…so it still has some use

  • laphej

    can any1 tell me how many % its crit capped ?

  • Rashad

    The other downside to haste is that once you under 2 second casting with starfire, it makes Reign of the Dead/Unliving a worse trinket.

  • Roukie

    Should we be keeping above a 2sec SF wen we get 4pc t10 then?

  • Qieth

    I dont know why people are putting that much value in personal oppinions. This is science, aubjective oppinions had no effect on the actual answer. And thus, wanting crit to be better doesn’t make it so.

    Yes, crit and haste are worth “roughly” the same on the grand scheme of things, and if you are considering one gem, it probably won’t matter. But if you want to find out what gear you need to go for or how to gem, then you need to know the exact value of the stats. For me, crit is worth about 1,1 dps and haste about 1,42. We hardly ever have the option to go only crit or only haste. Doing so will give us a lot of items featuring spirit. Best thing to do, according to the science, is to aim for an even distribution, pref. through crit/haste items. Whether you gem for either or should be dictated by your current gear. For those in tier 10, it’s probably haste. But if you want to go for crit, go ahead. You are just not squeezing the lemon to its fullest.

    I don’t think we will see a massive difference in stat weight. While starfall gains a buff, it is still less that 10% of our total damage. Sure, we are looking at a 500+ dps increase but starfires and wrath is still pulling the weight.

    So why is haste so good? Because it benefits both your nukes. Where crit doesn’t benefit starfire after 42% (soft cap) unless you lose a raid buff, you can be sure that haste gives you faster starfires AND helps you whenever you have to refresh dots or move for more than a second. And by pasta, there is plenty of movement in ICC and many times where natures grace falls off or you happen to be out of range of totem of wrath.

    Look it up. Get wrath calcs :)

    – QQ

  • Qieth

    Also. Who cares that starfire gies below 2 seconds? You will replace reign of the dead anyways, and languish will still get a chance to fire. It should not be your concern.

  • Balourd

    Qieth has a point, you can’t just navigate through forums, hear a moonkin or two talk about “oh yeah i prefer haste over crit past caps” and think ” sheeeesh, ill go for haste too since this notorious moonkin says so ”
    Like Qieth said again, Wrathcalcs will give you pretty accurate stat weights considering your current gear and raid formation. THIS is the only way to really know which way to go past your caps.

    For those of you still wondering about caps, here they are:
    Haste soft-cap (cap where (Wrath + nature’s grace)= 1.0 sec cast time) : 401 haste.
    Crit soft-cap (cap where (Starfire + Lunar Eclipse)= 100% crit chance) : 1575,5 – (INT/3), where INT = your buffed Intelligence (since we all know INT gives a small crit buff).

    I gem for Spellpower and Haste cause im a huge fan of 1.2 sec Starfires during heroism or when i proc my Hyperspeed Accelerators. Or when i proc BOTH. drool.

  • Balourd

    byyy the way sunfyre, very hot picture you got uploaded there.

  • Sunfyre

    Languish fires half as often as it should with Starfire below 2 seconds.

  • Orrak

    while I understand the value of tools like wrath calcs, rawr, etc, treating them as standalone gospel is foolish. They are simply a set of slgorithims designed to show you the proportionate numerical benefit of stats. if you are not taking those numbers in context; of your personal strengths and weaknesses, your raid, and what roles you typically play in them than you are not approaching gearing mindfully or correctly for that matter. That’s why discussions like these are helpful

    for example in the specific situation where you are returning to your rotation after sone movement with lunar on cooldown would haste or crit be more valuable, such a discussion will ideally branch out to discussing how scenarios such as these effect our gear choices.

    What is essentially boils down too is that wrath calcs is considering our entire dos time in it’s calculations while I am far more concerned about the dps time spentoutside of eclipse, namely: how to minimize it. Both are valid discussions about the same topic, but one(I believe) does it in a more meaningful/useful way.

  • Renxo

    I was wondering, how often to you keep IS up since you say that it is lowered on your priority list? I have begun to think the same thing and am wondering how much I should be concerned with keeping it up.

  • Sunfyre

    I’m not glyphed for insect swarm. I only put it up to utilize the hit debuff if it’s a heroic fight where our tanks are getting rocked, or I need to move, then I’ll toss it up. The theorycrafting has proven that putting up an IS at the beginning of a Solar Eclipse does not actually give you enough bonus damage (from IIS) to waste a GCD on IS. I try to refresh moonfire about halfway through my solar eclipse simply because it should give me enough time to extend it with starfire under lunar eclipse, via glyph of starfire, and I need to keep it up anyways for the idol.

  • Sunfyre

    @Qieth: I tend to be a much bigger fan of Simulation Craft then WrathCalcs because it goes much more thorough. If you look at the Top 50 list on Strayegg, you’ll notice that you rate a bit above me in ‘Stat Score’, which is a weighting based on Graylo’s values, and then the additional stats put in. Although your gear weights higher in the “conventional moonkin itemization”, Simulation Craft has me farther ahead in DPS by a considerable amount. This is sim craft, so it’s not actuals, and I’m not commenting on your or my DPS ability, just the simulation results based on both sets of gear. I’m pretty high on spirit right now, not by choice, but because the heroic Deathwhisper Chestpiece was a clear upgrade from my 258 Tier 9, and I feel is still an upgrade over 264 Tier 10, so I use it as my offset piece. I was able to drop 60 spirit by replacing the badge cloak today, but it’s still higher then I’d prefer.

  • nomilk

    btw sun u might wanna change that hit gem in your neck as your over hit capped :)

  • Qieth

    Sunfyre > So what? Are you bothered by the fact that two wrath crits in a row will extend it as well? You shouldn’t be. You can be sure that your languish will get its chance to fire off in every single bossfight, even when its purely nuking, and even if you have amazing crits. You will have dry spills – heck, any time that you don’t gain solar eclipse for a few starfires, or don’t crit with a few wraths, and its done. It doesn’t matter how long you extend languish, it will just grow bigger and bigger – except for the point where the boss is dying, but even if you do lose languish damage here, it is such a small part of your overall DPS.

    Orrak > You are forgetting to apply your own argument to the situation at hand. Lets have two examples: Going for the optimal gearing, and be subject to “personal strengths and weaknesses, your raid and what roles you play in them”, and then going for subpar gear choices, with the same limitations as just mentioned. Even if it is your personal preference to go more for crit than haste – given the choice – it would still be hampered just the same. I do know that Wrath Calcs isn’t a bible, but it is a tool that you MUST take into consideration if you want to optimize your play. It is sort of like saying “I know that the doctor say that i should eat more fiber, but my personal preference is fast food. It might not be “as healthy” but it keeps me fed”. Wrath Calc is a tool, and your best bet of a scientific approach to the questions regarding gear.

    Sunfyre 2 > I hear what you are saying, but until Stray’s list is anywhere near done, I wouldn’t be so quick to use it as any sort of argument. No doubt he has a plan with it, but there could still be a lot of issues to iron out.

    • Sunfyre

      If Languish fired once before refreshing, it would still continue to stack at the same rate, but would be firing once before the refresh. That’s the (broken) problem with it.

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