Why Moonkin are broken..

by on Nov.25, 2009, under General

I originally wrote this as a comment to Qieth’s post over at Qieth’s Quips, but I thought I’d share it here.  This is using World of Logs, looking at the top DPS of each encounter, and the top moonkin.  I think it’s pretty self explanatory in that Moonkin are broken.

Northrend Beasts:

Top DPS: 8994
Top Moonkin: 7550
Moonkin was at 83.9% of max DPS

Lord Jaraxxus:

Top DPS: 15542, huge delta, second was 12183
Top Moonkin: 9067
Moonkin was at 74.5% / 58% of max DPS

Faction Champions (Alliance)
Top DPS: 18432
Top Moonkin: 7137
Moonkin was at 38% of max DPS

Faction Champions (Horde)
Top DPS: 15742
Top Moonkin: 7134
Moonkin was at 45% of max DPS

Twin Val’kyrs:
Top DPS: 18129
Top Moonkin: 12945
Moonkin was at 71.4% of max DPS

Top DPS: 12672
Top Moonkin: 8602
Moonkin was at 67.8% of max DPS

And just for giggles..

Top DPS: 11301
Top Moonkin: 7665
Moonkin was at 67.8% of max DPS

I think that a 20% on average difference in DPS is a bit steep for a “hybrid tax”.

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23 Comments for this entry

  • Najtrok

    Consider this:
    Jaraxxus: Mages steal, they always win here
    FC: DKs can bomb
    Twins: Mages Absorb = HUGE dmg boost for arcane
    Anub: Did you compare 25HC? I agree we are not that huge at AoE.

    Look at the meters:
    – Jaraxxus: Mages Top
    – FC: DKs Top
    – Twins: Mages
    – Anub: DKs

    Now the only real image you get is on Beasts and there you might consider we highly depend on Eclipse to proc after a crash, which others dont.
    Now there is where I would see your “broke” point: After a downtime where we cant nuke, our dps goes down because we got no proc running.
    But in all other encounters there is just a class that has a big advantage.
    And Algalon does favor DKs (no I dont know why but look at the meters).

    You have to be very careful with such Data from WoL, especially max dps…

  • Sunfyre

    So you’re pretty much saying every fight is a “gimmick” fight? And yes, Anub’arak was looking at heroic. They all were.

    As for Jaraxxus, there’s a warrior at 11,390. Last I checked, they don’t spellsteal. That’s still leaving a moonkin doing 79% of…another hybrid? And death knights too, another hybrid, topping charts.

  • Najtrok

    Well that DKs are kinda OP is really clear and yes, I am not saying we are totally in place, I just say your comparison is displaced.

    Question is: Why does a warrior deal more dmg? I would just say: Since its a top meter you can calculate luck in: Adds staying near a boss make a fury fall in love with you, and since its top dps thats not so unlikely

  • Sunfyre

    Well, the infernals don’t stay near the boss, they run all over, so the only add you’d have near the boss is the Mistress, and she’s kind of all over, too, and not up very long.

  • Balourd

    I give the point to Sunfyre. Yes, fights mechanics do vary and give some edge to classes some times. but that’s an average. and these are not just stats, theyre actual in-game damage reports. so its not all theory and number punching : its the reality, we have a 20% disadvantage over top dps.
    Where’s our advantaging fight? Beasts but then again like Najtrok said crashes are crucial.

    You cant dodge the fact that some classes have talents and abilities that bring them on top of the meters, and that we dont.
    and i think that’s what’s broken about us.

  • Sunfyre

    We haven’t had an advantaging fight since General Vezax and Hodir.

    The excuses I keep hearing are “well, those are gimmick fights”, or “well other classes can blow cooldowns during phase”. Well, the problem is, EVERY fight is becoming this way. The only stand and nukes I can think of (at which we may have a level playing ground) are Emalon (sort of) and Patchwerk. I don’t know about you but I’d like to be competitive outside of Naxxramas and Vault of Archavon.

  • Qieth

    I have asked you a few other places, but i havent spotted a reply:

    “I think that a 20% on average difference in DPS is a bit steep for a “hybrid tax”. ”

    Are you 20% behind the rest of the DPS in your guild?

  • Qieth

    Are you telling me that they only class you can stay above is shadowpriests?!

    • Sunfyre

      On most fights in TotGC? Yes. Perhaps a warlock or two, but not our best geared/best played mages, rogues, death knights, warriors, enhancement shaman, hunters.. it’s a toss up with the elemental shaman really.

      As for Ulduar? I don’t know, it’s been a long time, and Ulduar is not progression.

  • Qieth

    To be fair, your gear setup is.. needing a few tweaks. Can you share with us why you have so much haste, and so little crit?

    • Sunfyre

      Sure. Because the heroic blade of tarasque is better then the 245 dagger with crit on it, over the hastecap or not, and because our 258 leather pieces have haste on them, and are better then 245 gear without haste, hastecap or not. I also cannot “invent” gear to drop for me, and I don’t have the dkp to take the cloth gear over our mages.

  • Qieth

    Ah DKP. We don’t use that, thankfully. I can understand that, being relatively new in your guild, you wont have as much DKP as others to get items.

    But there is no way that you should be competing with shadow priests. Believe what you wish, but you should be well ahead of shadowpriests.

    I do believe that your lack of crit has a lot to say. We have had our discussions regarding DPS, but i am confident that you would see a much bigger increase in DPS if you were to focus a bit more on crit, and a bit less on above-cap haste.

  • Sunfyre

    If you look at Graylo’s math, haste still values higher at 14% haste does than crit.

    Being above or below people is relative. What is your DPS on the TotGC fights?

  • Qieth

    I cannot substitute any claims with logs. We had some problems with last weeks logs, and our raid leader DC’ed on a NrB kill aswell (can be seen on http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/19926/). So the only *real* log i have to show you is nearly 3 weeks old (last week no log, and the week before was the DC). This makes it very difficult to compare any kind of logs or claims.

    But from looking at your guilds WOL, i am generally another 1k DPS above you at least, according to the logs i saw from your guild.

    I never, ever allow my haste to go that high, and i value crit a lot more, which gives me some nice results.

    I will return wednesday, provided we get no more mishaps with the logs, and then i can back up my claims regarding my DPS (and then we might want to check which factors apply to each log cause, as you know, i am no fan of simply comparing two numbers with no regards to how those numbers came to be :P).

    • Sunfyre

      Which fights are you comparing? I don’t care about anything besides heroic ToC. Comparing your 11/11 log versus our 11/10 log,

      Heroic Jaraxxus: You’re at 6458 DPS, and you’re #4. I’m at 6424 DPS, and at #15. Your raid DPS was 96465.4, ours was 130182.3.

      I died on Northrend beasts, and since I didn’t get to DPS during the weakened stages on Icehowl. Your raid DPS: 86579.8. Ours: 107733.1.

      There’s huge disparities in raid DPS. Using your claim of “I’m such and such position on DPS charts” doesn’t hold much water when your overall raid DPS is so much less.

      Furthermore, it looks like you often have focus magic as well as improved scorch/imp shadowbolt, something we run without except for Anub’arak.

  • Qieth

    TL;DR version: We are in more or less equal gear. I don’t believe that your +112 haste makes up for my +6% crit. Your SP is slightly higher than mine aswell (about 150 with trinkets running) but that is made up from the proc on my Reign of Dead (which, by the way, works perfectly with 400 haste, giving me a proc every starfire duing eclipse). My stat allocation is different, and i believe that is why i experience higher numbers.

  • Xiera

    Interesting discussions here. My guild is nowhere near top-shelf (we’re not even attempting ToGC yet — we simply wouldn’t have the DPS for it). Before I was asked to switch to my feral tank, Xiera was always top-5 DPS, often first. (The others that consistently rounded out the top 5 were a ret pally, an enh shaman, and two hunters.) Relative to my guild, I was doing really well with my ~6k DPS. Big picture, though, that really isn’t going to compete with other classes.

    I don’t think a simple parse is going to tell you much about these fights though. I wouldn’t call them “gimmick” fights, per se, but they definitely unrealistically scale DPS for certain classes. Rather than just finding the highest DPS for each of these fights, is it possible to find the high-end DPS for each class and spec for each of the fights? That may give us a more realistic view of where we stand.

    That said, yes, we need a buff. And it seems like GC is going to give us a buff. What exactly that will be… no idea.

    What we really need is a Patchwerk-like fight right at the beginning of ICC so we can get a better idea of where different classes stand.

  • Qieth

    I’m confused Xiera – you said that you were in the top 5 most of the time, but then you turn around and say that it isn’t competing with other classes. That doesn’t quite fit together.

    • Xiera

      That’s correct. ~6k DPS was enough for me to finish in the top-5 for most fights for my guild, including first in many cases. Compare that to other moonkins and it’s a little below par, but probably appropriate for the gear I’m wearing. Then compare better-geared, better-skilled moonkins to their counterparts of other classes and you’ll see that moonkins are lagging by a not insignificant amount.

      My point is: topping the guild’s charts does not mean that everything is perfect in the world.

      I hit my rotation pretty perfectly so I consistently beat players who are “better-geared” (have higher gear scores). But if everyone else in my guild knew exactly how to gear for their class and hit their rotations perfectly, knew how to move optimally, etc., I highly doubt I’d be competitive.

  • Qieth

    I disagree – most of the well geared moonkins are quite equal on most fights.

  • Seca

    Another way of looking at logs is how many moonkin are actually in raid. My impression is that it’s uncommon to find more then 1 in guilds of quality.

    Despite having a very good moonkin, your guild Qieth is no exception. Lots of rogues, warlocks, hunters. 1 moonkin. Last time my own guild had more then 1 moonkin in raid was Naxx.

    Last I checked, druid was the 3rd most popular class in WoW. The balance rotation is far easy to learn then feral. Balance gear is more accessible then feral. If moonkin dps is truly competitive, why isn’t there greater representation?

  • Becoming

    Qieth said:
    TL;DR version: We are in more or less equal gear. I don’t believe that your +112 haste makes up for my +6% crit

    However, just before that:
    Heroic Jaraxxus: You’re at 6458 DPS, and you’re #4. I’m at 6424 DPS, and at #15. Your raid DPS was 96465.4, ours was 130182.3.

    Just to point out, I would say that the 112 does, in fact, make up for the +6% crit, as the difference in DPS on these fights is less than 1%. I’m pretty sure crit has been shown time and again to not be a stellar stat for us to stack. Not useless, but not as useful as Spell power or Haste, even above-soft-cap levels of haste.

    Not to mention, depending on your crit levels, you are likely bumping into the crit cap during Lunar anyway, so no matter how you look at it, item points are being wasted (either by stacking haste above cap or crit above cap).

    That said, with all the movement that goes on in fights, I’d rather be able to get more casts out, even if it means fewer of them crit.

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