Breaking 3.3 Changes: 2pc T8 NERFED. WiseEclipse NERFED.

by on Nov.23, 2009, under General

According to MMO-Champion, the following changes are in the new PTR test build:

[spell]64818[/spell] – Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 7%. (Down from 15%)

I guess this will prevent us from keeping the 2pc T8 around.

Also, another change.  It looks like this one was created to purposefully disable WiseEclipse:

[spell]Eclipse[/spell]: This effect will not activate again within 15 seconds of either type of Eclipse effect firing, in addition to the existing 30-second cooldown for each type of Eclipse.

So I guess my question for the devs are:

You’re purposefully nerfing our Tier 8, instead of making our Tier 10 better.  You’re purposefully nerfing WiseEclipse which allows us to keep our DPS semi-competitive.  What do YOU expect us to do now to stay competitive?  How are YOU going to fix the spec instead of just nerfing everything we’ve had?

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14 Comments for this entry

  • Akutsito

    One of the main issues here, is that Rogues used a similar addon, which made their Weapon Swap automatic, Blizzard disabled the addon and say “Hey, its a shitty mechanic really, here, have some extra dps to compensate”.

    In our case, we’re just plain Nerfed, honestly, even if the Addon was banned, i guess it would be okay, but the nerf is imho ridiculous, im quite upset about this.

    Its been 3 Patches (3.0, 3.1, 3.2), and our rotation have changed 3 times, and its changing yet again (from EclipseFAIL and Stacking Haste, Lunar Eclipse use, Twisting Eclipse, and here we change YET again).

    Quite annoyed really.

  • Dirkastan

    well this sucks, boomkins are already a semi-low dps class, and now 2 nerfs in a row. they better make the t10 bonuses rock.

  • Sunfyre

    My problem with it is this: Mages have ALWAYS used this same mechanic on shatter, stacking an ice lance immediately following a frost bolt, so the ice lance still gets the damage/crit bonus, even though the frost bolt should have broken the frozen effect.

  • Qieth

    You know, they did buff tier 10:

    Item – Druid T10 Balance 4P Bonus – Your critical strikes from Starfire and Wrath cause the target languish for an additional 7% of your spell’s damage over 4 sec. (Up from 5%)

    Dirkastan: Moonkins are very competative. Moonkins that can’t compete with other classes on most fights are either undergeared or underskilled.

  • dix

    Qieth: just.. no!

  • Xiera

    Okay, so a few things here.

    One: We knew 2T8 would be experiencing a nerf, it was just a matter of time. As has been discussed elsewhere, 2T8 was designed before 3.2 introduced alternating Eclipses (which practically doubles Eclipse uptime). This made 2T8 about twice as good as they intended. They really should have nerfed 2T8 when 3.2 was released, but they didn’t and they’re fixing it now. Those of us at the forefront of the raiding world will not notice much of a change here, as we’ll be moving to T10 anyways. This hurts people who aren’t so advanced in the raiding world.

    Two: WiseEclipse wasn’t nerfed, it was broken. As in, it completely doesn’t work any more. Really, though, you can’t say it was nerfed because it wasn’t part of the game’s design. There is, and should be, absolutely no expectation that Blizzard will incorporate addons into their view of how a class should be played. Both the rogue addon and WiseEclipse fundamentally changed the way the classes were played, and so Blizzard broke the addons by fixing game mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, rogues got compensation and we just got fixed. Maybe now that WiseEclipse isn’t distorting our numbers, Blizz will see just how far behind other classes we are.

    Three: Frost mages do use the Frostbolt/Ice Lance combo for maximum DPS. That is, when they get Fingers of Frost, they cast two Frostbolts and immediately queue the Ice Lance after the second Frostbolt. There are three differences here: 1. how many frost mages do you see raiding, really?; 2. they are not relying on an addon to help them with this combo; and 3. there really is no way Blizzard could fix this behavior, even if they wanted to.

    Qieth, as a moonkin that is consistently at the top of our DPS charts, I can tell you that we are, generally, not very competitive. But, wait, I just said I was on top of our DPS charts. My DPS is about the same as many other moonkins who are at the middle or bottom of their charts. Bear in mind that just because you or I are doing well compared to the others we run with, that does not mean that our class is truly on par with other classes. When we talk about the state of moonkin DPS, we’re talking about people who are in best-in-slot gear and hitting our rotations perfectly, compared against other classes who are in best-in-slot gear and hitting their rotations perfectly. We just don’t compare at that level.

    • Sunfyre

      I agree with you regarding WiseEclipse. I think the major gripe here is they’re breaking this semi-exploit/”creative use of game mechanics” and not fixing the root of the problem which is what drove us to using WiseEclipse — Eclipse is too RNG and we’re too focused on it as a class to be competitive in any real end game content.

    • Qieth

      Xiera: I disagree. We do, actually, compare to other classes. You will often see peope go “Well, you do x DPS there, but look at this log from another guild, where everybody is doing more damage”.

      Taking DPS from one log to compare it to a completely different log is a bad practice. I have often pointed out that the really high DPS that we see on top lists are on quite quick kills, either because people are well geared or because they have more DPS’ers in than we do. The shorter the fight is, the larger DPS will be in general.

      Consider a BM hunter. Whenever he uses beastial wrath and rapid fire, his DPS shoots up (no pun intented). Then for the next three minutes his overall DPS will slowly drop down, because the boost from his special abilities even out over time. Imagine the difference between a fight ending just before, and just after, a hunter uses his nuke abilities. Huge difference in DPS.

      Imagine then something like bloodlust, where you see a massive increase in damage. The shorter the fight, then the less time to average all that DPS out on, and the result is a higher net DPS. One more DPS’er in a group can shave off several minutes of a fight, which will have a positive effect on a persons DPS.

      So you can’t just take a look at the top kills. The raids are different, and you cannot be sure that you see a competent moonkin (if there even is one in the group). You have to look at raid composition, amount of DPS’ers, kill time and many other things, and that makes it very difficult to compare one log to another.

      Fact of the matter is, when we see it in real life, and the SimCraft supports this (Simcraft update from 20th of November shows us just 2,9% behind arcane mages). And since none of us, or your guildies, are in BIS, there are a whole lot of factors to take into account. There is currently NO reason why you shouldn’t be equal on a single target fight.

      I am publishing a post regarding this. It will.. be around.. somewhere.. on the.. internet (I don’t want to look like im using Sunfyre’s blog to advertise). You might bump into it some day.

      • Xiera

        I understand where you’re coming from Qieth, but I’m not sure we’re on the same page here. I’m constantly in the top 3 in my guild, and it’s anything but rare for me to in the top slot. I’m only pulling about 6100 DPS on a normal fight (one without insane buffs like Twins).

        Now, I’m not talking about comparing my DPS and spot on the damage charts to other parses. I’m talking about how I constantly hear about other moonkin — moonkin who are considered among the best in the world, in some of the best guilds in the world — who simply cannot compete on their damage charts. I’m comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges here. My apples are better than my guild’s apples, but in top guilds, a moonkin orange isn’t as good as another DPSer orange, even though all of the oranges are affected by the same buffs and use their cooldowns optimally.

        I’m talking top-end DPS here. I’m talking about the people and guilds that ARE in best-in-slot gear and ARE hitting their rotations perfectly. I’m not talking about real damage or real DPS here, I’m talking about *potential* DPS here. We simply don’t have the DPS potential of most other DPS classes. (Yes, there are some worse than us and they need buffed too.)

        And I am familiar with your blog, Qieth. I happen to enjoy reading QQ. I started reading it, though, when I was bogged down with work at work (not a bad thing), so I couldn’t get in the habit of posting.

        • Qieth

          (Yeah, i didn’t want to look like i was poaching readers, which is why i didn’t mention the name)

          I see those druids aswell. They are all over MMO-champ’s forums, but i think they are very, very narrow minded. They are not looking at the broad picture. None of them are in BIS gear, unless they have managed to be one of the first people to get 4pt9.258 before the rest of their guilds get a few of their pieces.

          You cannot assume that just because a person is in a good guild, that he actually is a good player, can you? A druid in the best guild on my server has been using 4pt9 since he could get them from badges. Even in higher guilds (disregard the insane top of the line guilds, maybe the top 20 of all guilds), you begin to risk running into moonkins that might not be skilled or geared, or that the fights they are complaining about are gimmicked against them – i see most of the high end people complaining about Anub.

          Turn it around – can we imagine the guys on Elitist Jerks to be competent people? Their Simcraft sais that we are 3% away from the highest theoretical DPS, and if their data was different from reality, wouldn’t they try and find the reason why?

  • Balourd

    The core of these announces is that they dont bring anything else to compensate. So its basicaly a “please moonkins reroll a pure class so we can stop caring about you” problem.
    Seriously they better bring something new to the table to compensate for these nerfs.

    Qieth people are right. I’m not in BiS and i can get in top4 dps most of the time, but you should see BiS DKs or warlocks. Never can catch up with that, especially after a bad eclipse round.
    Imagine a Ford Escort trying to keep up with a Corvette. You can try and gimp your Escort with new pieces but in the end the Corvette is better equipped.

    I’ll work on that metaphor but you get the point.

  • Akutsito

    And it seems im an idiot and misunderstood the nerf, go me!

    Im somewhat glad i was wrong tho >.>.

  • Sunfyre

    Qieth: I’ve added your blog to my blogroll. Don’t worry about linking your blog here, I link blogs all the time.

    As for topping DPS meters.. Anub may be a “gimmick” fight, but pretty much every fight in ToC is a “gimmick” fight, and it’s the hardest content available. Many classes pull 10k-11k dps on heroic Anub. I’ve yet to see a moonkin come close.

  • Qieth

    The post is up, for anyone that care. The link is here:

    Sunfyre: Thank you very much – i just want to show respect in other peoples homes ;)

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